NTLDR problem on new XP install
 

I am trying to replace the HDD in a Sony Vaio VGN S1-XP but the CD drive does not work (appears to be a known problem with the Matsushita drives in this model).

So, I have been following William Wilson's tutorial - Install Windows XP without floppy or cd drives.

All went well until I refitted the new drive back into the laptop. I ran the WINNT.exe which copied all the files from the CD (or in my case, the newly created I386 folder on the HDD). It then got to the stage of the first reboot and I got the dreaded 'NTLDR is missing, press any key to restart'.

I have looked around at various causes but can't find any real clues. As it is so early in the process, I can't access the command prompt to look around, I can't boot in Safe Mode (F8 seems to be ignored) and can't access the rescue console.

I have tried it about 3 times, double checking each step with no luck.

Any ideas anyone?

Thanks

/ntldr is the Windows XP boot loader
 

Sounds like you have managed to loose it in the process.

I seem to remember that you can copy a copy of this file from another working XP machine.

I had this problem when trying to get a Dual Boot with Vista. I fixed it with VistaBoot Pro - which has an option to reload the legacy boot loader. (XP in this case).

If you can get your pc to boot somehow it is the boot loader that you have to fix. The boot loader reads options from boot.ini and determines what to do at boot time.

Hopefully this have given you a few more things to look for.
Good Luck

You might want to try this:

I'v uploaded a replacement file here:
unzip it on your working desktop and place it on the root of your laptop HD
NTLDR.zip

Hope this helps
If it doesnt, I have another idea. (scary Hu? :icon_wink:)

Thanks for the replies.

I know it's not missing because I plugged the drive back into te other PC and could see it.

This is my Daughter's laptop and she will not be back with it for the next 10 days so I am trying to get some ideas for when she returns.

I will try your file legomind as one of the options.

However I want to clarify a part of the instructions in the Tutorial. It is the part regarding where to position the drive on the IDE cable - quote:

attatch the drive to IDE 1, channel 2 and start up your computer.
- format the drive to FAT32 (you can always switch it to ntfs later, with a prog such as partition magic)
- shutdown the computer

*With the DOS cd in the drive

- switch the laptop drive to IDE 1 channel 1 for best chance of detection, DOS is not the smartest OS ever made

My PC is configured with a SATA drive and the CD drive on IDE2. I plugged the laptop drive into IDE 2 channel 2 (mid point on the cable?) and formatted it there.

I have now done this a number of times and have tried copying the I386 folder across in Windows and Dos with the same result. I started to read more not completely related threads on here and by piecing things together, I started to think the poition of the drive was more critical than I first thought. So I have now tried it without the SATA drive connected and with the Laptop drive on IDE 2 channel 1 but the same result.

Is this important? Should I do it again with the drive on IDE 1? I thought the position was only important in ensuring it was recognised correctly by the PC and had no impact once moved to the laptop. Is that incorrect?

Thanks.

The IDE cable that you use CAN determine the drive letter of the HD. My computer, with the dos from this site, usually detects the HD no matter where I put it.

Which cable you use can also determine speed. If the laptop HD is the only drive on the IDE cable, the transfer speed will be noticeably faster. (Ideal :))

I am saying this from my own experience. The above is not law! What I am trying to say is that I have never run into a problem with switching ide cables, although it might happen.

Now about your problem, make sure that if you are copying in windows that you are NOT compressing them. Dos cannot "see" any files that are compressed by windows. Can you see the files in windows after you copy them? Do you get an error message?

I you are using dos, mistakes are easily made. I recommend using the "explorer" add-in, and visually coping the files from the left and right drives.
--
Also, I wanted to point something out. I'm not meaning to criticize the tutorial that you are following in any way, but formatting a drive fat32 and converting it to ntfs after you install windows, can be a HUGE mistake. You see, windows doesn't like anything moving the system folders, and that is what happens when you convert a drive to ntfs.

I HIGHLY recommend making two partitions, one fat32 (for dos) and one ntfs (for widows). Make sure that they are both logical drives and that the fat32 partition is the primary. install dos, and continue as the tutorial describes.

This is very tricky. You must really know what you are doing. I just did this whole thing a few days ago. If you need step-by-step instructions, just ask. But trust me, all of this trouble is worth it in the long run.

Legomind - I know that the drive letter can be assigned in this way but I assumed that it would be re\assigned when transferring it back to the laptop. Either way, when the drive was in the laptop (before I ran the install routine and after Dos had loaded) I could see the I386 folder and I did a DIR to see all the files, I also went in there to run Smartdrv so I am pretty sure that all was OK although I am going through every step in my mind ready for the bext attempt!

The logic of the dual partition soumds very sensible to me and whilst I think I have an idea how to achieve it I'd definitely appreciate the step by step guide:)

As for the original problem, I think I have established that the drive itself is ok as I had installed windows completely whilst it was attached to my PC just to prove all was ok, which it was. It is also recognised perfrctly by both PCs and does at least go through the start up and copy files phase so it must be recognised by the BIOS.

I am at a bit of a loss:confused:

Quote:
I assumed that it would be re\assigned when transferring it back to the laptop.

I am sorry, what do you mean by this? :sconfused: The drive letter is determined by the computer that it is installed in. The drive letter is not "written" to the drive itself, the drive letter may change when moving between computers, or it may not. (there is a logic to this, but don't ask me!)

sorry if i am being ignorant! :)

No just my explanation is at fault!

What I meant was that my assumption was that whatever drive letter was assigned whilst it was attached to the desktop was replaced by the one assigned when I transferred it to the laptop. Which is the same as you have said, just that your description was clearer.:embarrassed:

OK. These are the steps for the dual partition.

Connect the Laptop HD to the desktop. I would HIGHLY recommend removing your desktop HD, to keep from losing any files! :)

The following assumes you have a clean HD, no partitions. If you need help doing this PM me. (note: fdisk my test the HD between the steps below. Just let it finish.)

Boot from a boot floppy or disk (98 will work)

1. At the DOS prompt type "fdisk" (without the quotes)
2. You might be asked if you would like enable large disk support. If so, choose yes (Type "y" and press enter)
3. Select "Create DOS partition or Logical DOS Drive" (Type "1" and press enter)
4. Select "Create Primary DOS Partition" (Type "1" and press enter)
5. Enter "1500 and press enter (this is a gig and a half. if you go smaller, you may get an error in the setup. Better safe, then sorry!:))
6. Fdisk will should to the main screen. If not press "esc"
You have just created the partition that dos and the xp setup files will stay in. Now lets do one for XP!
7. Select "Create DOS partition or Logical DOS Drive" (Type "1" and press enter)
8. Select "Create Extended DOS Partition" (Type "2" and press enter)
9. DOS should ask you if you would like to use the rest of the disk for this partition. Choose yes (Type "y" and press enter)
You have created the partitions, but for the second one to "show up" we must "assign a drive letter"
10. Fdisk should ask you something about a logical drive. leave the numbers alone and press enter. If DOS did not ask you, then follow steps 10a - 10c.
10a. Return to the main screen
10b. Select "Create DOS partition or Logical DOS Drive" (Type "1" and press enter)
10c. Select "Create Logical DOS Drive(s) in the Extended DOS Partition" (Type "3" and press enter)

OK. Now that's done, just reconnect your primary hard drive to your desktop, install dos, copy the xp setup files to the DOS Partition (the small one) and follow the steps below in windows. You must be in an administrator account.
To format NTFS:

1. Click start.
2. Click Control Panel
3. Click Administrative Tools
4. Double Click Computer Management
5. Click Disk Management on the left
6. Choose the appropriate disk (should be disk 2)
You should now see a graph on the bottom of the window
7. Right click the larger partition (should be on the right)
8. Click format
9. Make sure that it is in NTFS mode, and that "enable file and folder compression is not checked (it would be best not to do a quick format here)
10 Click ok

Yay now your done! Install XP like described in the tutorial!
Let me know if this helps!

Thanks, I don't get the laptop back until next weekend so I'll give it a try then. I'll let you know how it goes.

Another approach entirely
 

I have replaced the HDD in a number of IBM "X" series notebooks and they don't even have a CD or CDROM drive!

What I do now, partly because I was too cheap to shell out for the docking station (media slice IBM called it!). My current X40 and X61 have excellent USB support and an external USB DVD-ROM serves me well when restoring the operating system and files to a new drive.

My last 500G external drive cost me not much over $125. With it, apart from backups, I keep images of all my HDDs on all the pcs I administer.

I don't know about Sony, but replacing the drive was really easy with the IBM. Booting from the external USB cd drive and then recovering the image from the USB drive.

I realise that you may not have an image of the old drive, but you could probably do a full XP install from the external drive. I would be reluctant to start pulling IDE cables out of my desktops. I must admit I haven't priced a IDE converter. The imaging software takes care of all the partitioning, formating and transfer of files. I have used the IBM/Lenovo backup image and also Acronis TrueImage. The latter was used to swap out the 30G HDD for a 100G HDD in my IBM R31 - using an external USB drive.

As I say I don't know about Sony.
More Luck
Martin

I should have said an extenal HDD and DVD-ROM
 

I also read Williams tutorial and he does mention that the IDE adapter should only cost around $20 (Canadian that is).

I just tried booting off the WindowsXP install cd with my R51 connected to an external USB CD drive. It works.

As I say I don't know Sony, but the IBM has USB support on install.

I also tried it with my brand new $379.99 Acer Vista notebook and that boots from the USB as well. You have to go into the system bios to change the boot order.

I would imagine the Sony has got BIOS support for usb - the R51 is three years old. However, this is not a cheap solution unless you need the drives for other purposes.

Martin

Hi Martin,

Problem is that the Sony won't boot from USB, it has a Phoenix BIOS which only has Floppy, CD, HD and something else (not USB but it might be LS120).

However, you got me thinking and looking at the Phoenix site, it states that the Phoenix BIOS will boot from USB, so I may be able to flash the BIOS to a version that does boot from USB which would definitely solve the problem as I could then load XP from an external CD drive:)

Thanks

First I would try copying the files again. You will get the file missing message if the file is corrupt. If that is the case you may get that message for a couple of other system files as it looks for them when booting.

Also could be an issue while copying the files. Laptop drives are usually set to Device 0 by default. So you could have issues if you have another device on the same cable, no matter the position, if you don't jumper them correctly.

I haven't read the article but I believe the reason for FAT32 partition is so that it can be read and written to from a standard DOS.

Glad I got you thinking!
 

Red

I am not sure but I think to flash the bios you might need to be able to boot! A bit of a "Catch 22"! The bios flash upgrade is usually supplied by the motherboard manufacturer (as I am sure that you have read on the Phoenix site).
I know when I updated an IBM they sent me an upgrade patch - which I think ran from a floppy - again a "catch 22".

However, looking in the BIOS setup for my Acer (Pheonix v1.3309) under the "Main" menu at the bottom was an option entitled "D2D Recovery" - which says: "Allow user to enable/disable the Disk-to-Disk recovery".
The General help says:
"..... incorrect settings may cause boot failure; load Setup Default values to recover...." - No kidding!

The D2D has not been changed and its default is [Enabled]

At least you now know a version of Pheonix BIOS that supports USB.

Martin

Back to the Boot Manager - the reason I got into this discussion in the first place
 

When I was setting up a dual boot I was getting the "/ntldr not found or corrupt error".
Doing some research I read that the files could be copied from a known working system. So, I copied the ntldr file from a working XP machine to the machine that I was getting the error.
Attempting the boot after this I didn't get the ntldr error but a different one that related to the HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer) dll. (I think that it was "hal.dll not found" - but I was getting a little out of my depth by this time!)

So, I decided to retrace my steps. I could boot WindowsXP after I had performed the XP install but I could not boot into Vista. I knew it was still there as it was still showing on the C: drive. XP was installed on the D: drive and as I say the computer booted just after I installed XP. So it would seem that ALL the bootloader files and the bootloader itself were working as they should.

However, the bootloader for XP is not the same as the one for Vista and as William pointed out in his tutorial you need to fix-up the Vista bootloader so that the computer will boot into Vista and hopefully (optionally XP) using the bootloader menu.

The fix was to use the Vista install DVD, except that instead of doing an install you chose the "Repair your computer" option. This hopefully restores what the XP install did to the Vista boot. It didn't work for me!

I had a backup image of Vista so in the worst case I could re-install that from scratch. I thought I would try a few more things first.

I re-installed XP again so that I could boot into XP again - whatever I did to the Vista install and the bootloader I am not sure. I tried to edit the boot.ini file using the bcdedit.exe utility which you can access when you boot from the Vista install DVD. I was not successful!

Doing some more research I came accross a utility called VistaBoot Pro. This was supposed to sort out all bootloader problems and configure your boot.ini file as it should. I think they say bcdedit made simple.

This utility runs in XP and you can edit the boot.ini file (I am not sure if it is the same file for XP and Vista but I think that it is). To cut a long story short - after installing Vistaboot Pro and running it to fix up my bootloaders I was able to boot into XP and Vista. I think that there was an option to load the "Legacy Bootloader" - to be honest I am not quite sure what I did but it fixed the problem.

Full circle ---- I am not saying that Vistaboot Pro is what RedW needs to fix his XP only problem, but Squirrelnmoose is probably correct that the system files are not being found when the system boots - not that they are missing or corrupt. The message is generic.

You also get the same "Repair your computer" on the XP install CD. However, this does not help RedW as he can't boot from the CD! What I think happens when you run this is that the "repair" fixes up the bootloader (appropriate for your system) and makes entries in boot.ini so that the bootloader knows where to find things.

There is a very detailed explaination here:
BOOT.INI file for Win2000/XP/2003

Red's case should be a lot simpler that this as all he wants to do is a single boot! However, there is a lot of information in the link above that might give some hints on what to edit. There is also a utility called bootcfg.exe (see the MS page How to edit the Boot.ini file in Windows XP - but it is only available in XP Pro (not Home).

Hope this helps
Martin

To do a BIOS update, it must be for the specific computer and model. Look at the mfg. website if you want to update the BIOS. The realease version notes usualy have what changes/fixes have been made in each version.
Be aware if a BIOS update goes wrong the computer will be useless. Some BIOS's can be recovered, but that's another post.

Thanks for the responses!

Martin - I have the original HDD so I could upgrade the Bios whilst that is installed and then proceed with the upgrade.....at least that's the theory!

On your other response regarding the bootloader, I think I know what you are saying but I need to re-read it and review the link to work out exactly what you are suggesting. Something for the weekend I think!

Squirrel - I am a bit concerned about a BIOS flash, especially as the Sony site doesn't really provide much help on that. But it really does seem like the answer. I guess I need to start pestering Sony and Phoenix for the correct file to ensure I get it right.

Thanks again:)

What's the model number? (Sony Vaio VGN)
Should be something like, VGN-A150. Usually the exact model and version is on the bottom of laptops.

It was in the first post
 

VGN-S1XP
Vaio : Support : Drivers and Updates - that model

BIOS Update R0072G4

This BIOS Update fixes following issue :

- Improved display functionality
Vaio : Support - where to download

The executable: PHBSYS-00775107-UN.exe - but it doesn't say anything about USB??

Yes, I have found that one but as you say, no mention of USB. When you flash a BIOS, does it replace the current one completely or does it upgrade. If the latter, then I may need previous upgrades, if the former then I should be OK.

I am registering for Sony support to try to get some form of clarification on the best file but at the moment, I have nothing to lose by going for that file.

BIOS updates erase and rewrite the BIOS and include all previous updates.
What is the problem with the onboard CD drive. Did you see there are firmware updates for these. (ironicly you need update from within Windows)

Also it may be bootable from USB. Not all features are always documented.

Squirrel,

I thought that BIOS updates included everyhthing so hopefully that version will do it.

The on board CD drive is visible in Control Panel, System but doesn't recognise discs. It looks to be a well known problem with the Matsushita drive in these laptops. I have upgraded the firmware and every other fix I can find reference to on the web, but without success. It also looks as though in most cases the only fix was to return it to Sony for a replacement.

Good point about the documentation, I'll give it a try, but wouldn't I see something the the BIOS boot options?

A USB boot option will not necessasarily show as such in the BIOS. Example, I have a laptop that boots from USB, but the only options are: HDD, CD, Network, Other Bootable Device. USB appearantly is considered Other Bootable Device on my system.

If you can find a CD drive they usually are fairly easy to replace.

I feel the need to point out that drive letters are relative to the OS. If you run a dual boot you will notice that the OS you run will almost always say it runs on C:\ when that is impossible for both. It's about perspective of the OS.

Are you sure you are making the drive active? When you install DOS, have you tried unplugging all the other hard drives to help ensure this drive will become that way?

Your method would appear correct, but there may be a problem with it. DOS cannot read ntfs partitions, and this includes the 16-bit installer used in this method. Thus all partitions need to be FAT32 if DOS and the installer is going to be able to read them and use them.

Hi All

William : you are totally off the subject , The CD-ROM /CD-WRITER has trouble reading the CD's . Now how do you expect they get it done with your instructions:

Squirel : Ingore Williams Message, Pass it on to others

Software Sales I hardly see how Williams advice was difficult to follow.

"Are you sure you are making the drive active? When you install DOS, have you tried unplugging all the other hard drives to help ensure this drive will become that way?"

Basically unplug any other drive other than the one that you want to work. Difficulty rating 1 out of 10.

And moaning about one of the best Mods on here because he has told you to stop spamming is stupid. Especially when you moan to other mods about it.

DONT SPAM AGAIN!

There i said it.

Thank you and good night.

OK, I have the laptop back. I have reformatted the drive and partitioned etc. Copied across the I386 folder, this time from an XP pro disc rather than the XP home one I was using before. Same error with the NTLDR.

I copied across the NTLDR file from Logomind, no change. I read the page on boot.ini and whilst I understood most of it, I wasn't quite sure what to do with it, having said that, my new HDD doesn't have a BOOT.INI!

Any more suggestions?

The boot.ini file
 

Curious!

If I follow the instructions in the link I posted before BOOT.INI file for Win2000/XP/2003 on a working XP system - I can see the contents of boot.ini:

[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOW S
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Windo ws XP Home Edition" /fastdetect

However, if a follow the instructions and look for the file in the root of C:\ - even though hidden and system files are set to display the file boot.ini still is nowhere to be seen!

If you open notepad and edit this non-existant file i.e. file open-> c:\boot.ini the listing that I pasted above appears???? So the file is there.

I would imagine if you open notepad (or another editor) and paste the lines above and save it to the root of c:\ it would then exist. However I am not sure how the operating system would view it as it wouldn't be a hidden system file. The computer that this was taken from is a single boot of WindowsXP Home.

Also searching for "boot.ini" turns up a file called "boot.ini.backup" in the directory c:\WINDOWS\pss - this was the case on two computers - the first was the XP Home machine that has never had a problem booting and has not had a dual boot or other operating system installed on it. The second was on a computer that dual boots Vista and XP Pro and the backup file was dated 11 Nov 2007 (the date that I was playing around with the dual boot) - The XP Home machine the backup is dated sometime in 2005!

Martin
Not sure if this helps?

In DOS
 

From the root of C:\

dir /ash boot.ini
shows date/time 184 BOOT.INI

and attrib boot.ini
shows SH C:\BOOT.INI

so you could change the attributes to System Hidden

Martin

It is curious isn't it.

I did successfully open the BOOT.INI file in notepad as you suggested but the result was not what I expected. On my work laptop, the file looked exactly the same as yours. On the new HDD it was as follows:

[boot loader]
timeout=5
default=C:\$WIN_NT$.~BT\BOOTSECT.DAT
[operating systems]
C:\="Microsoft Windows"
C:\$WIN_NT$.~BT\BOOTSECT.DAT="Windows XP Installation/Upgrade"

The C: drive on the desktop also has a BOOT.INI that looks correct. The one on the new drive appears to have incorrect or missing lines under the [operating systems] section.

I have reread the article you posted before, and whilst it explains the lines, I am no clearer as to why that might be happening.

If it thought it was a slave (back to my earlier concerns about where to place the drive) then it might not expect an OS and therefore not need those entries?

I could be wrong - but
 

There may be some significance in the entry that says "upgrade"

I know that it is just a description in the boot.ini file, however, it indicates to me that the XP install CD is not a full install?????

In which case the upgrade is relying on a previous install to take care of the boot.

The install on my dual boot - the boot.ini says only "Microsoft Windows XP Professional" - this was performed from an OEM WinXP Pro CD.

The WinXP Pro is on partiton(3) of rdisk(0) - my XP Home is on partition(1) of rdisk(0)

Did you try editing boot.ini?

(funny the use of the "k" in the labels disk and rdisk - I though disk was short for diskette???? an HDD is a Hard Disc Drive - but I guess we speak English as opposed to the strange dialect that we have to live with!)
Martin

One more find!
 

Doing a final poke around I came across:

Simple "ntldr is missing" fix with boot floppy, CD-R, or USB flash

It even mentions the "<Windows Root>\system32\hal.dll was missing or corrupt" message that I was getting way back!

Martin

Sorry Martin, I am sure I replied earlier...but it's not there:confused:

Anyway, I can edit the BOOT.ini in notepad as you suggest and looking at your latest post, I could change the attributes. However looking at the file it throws up another interesting point.

It appears to be missing some lines:

[Boot Loader]
Timeout=5
Default=C:\$WIN_NT$.~BT\BOOTSECT.DAT
[Operating Systems]
C:\ = "Microsoft Windows"
C:\$WIN_NT$.~BT\BOOTSECT.DAT = "Windows XP Installation/Upgrade"

Where are the ARC path lines?

Could it be back to the point I raised before about the position of the drive on IDE channel 1 or thinking it was a slave?

Master and Slave
 

Red,

As far as I understand the IDE identification of master and slave relates to the position of the jumpers on the drive.

When a drive is transferred to a laptop from a desktop it then becomes the Master (as it is the only drive and there are no jumpers to set - unlike an IDE drive in a desktop).

There only remains to determine the partition on which the boot manager resides. In my case the boot is on partition(1) [not partition(0) - this is where the recovery partition resides].

Setting the boot.ini to look at the appropriate partition (the one that contains the boot manager) is a matter of determining whether it is (0) or (1) - I think that it would be (0) in your case.

The boot disc would be disk(0), rdisk(0) and the partition(TBA) - and this would be in the default line of boot.ini

I am still not sure about the upgrade/full install issue.

Martin

I doubt it is a boot.ini issue, this file (if it even exists) is created during the installation, and it sounds like you are still not even getting through the entire installation.


*Assuming you are still using my tutorial as a guide to install XP*
This may be an odd thing to try, but MS has known issues with the NT filesystem and large files on the root drive, they are documented in many places, including: Windows may not start and you may receive an "NTLDR is missing" error message if Windows is not up-to-date and there are too many files in the root folder
and the .cab files which are compressed collections of the Windows OS are fairly large, especially for the FAT32 filesystem which this process requires.

Format the drive as usual, create 2 active partitions, 1 for DOS small and on the front of the drive, a 2nd larger after DOS (DOS must be first it may not boot elsewhere on the drive) for XP.
Then add an extended partition on the end, doens't need to be huge, but large enough to hold the i386 folder. Separating the install folder and installation partition may help. Especially if the i386 partition is on a non active partition.

I recently ran this process on my laptop again, and found that it is much more consistent with these settings. Separating the OS is useful should you ever need to reformat and install, as you will not need to remove the hard drive, all the files and DOS will already be on the drive :)

Forgive me if i missed it in all the previous posts, but have you tried starting the installation from another computer?
Use the desktop to start XP installing, when it attempts to reboot for the first time, hold you power button so that it will not restart, and place the drive back in the other computer, when it starts it should continue the installation process, thus setting up your proper hardware devices.

**The NTLDR missing is a common error, and rarely does it have to do with a missing file, unfortunately this is one of MS blanket errors that appears for one of a many possible reasons...

Hi Guys, thanks for the responses.

Unfortunately, it is a busy Laptop so I had to put the old drive back in again and let my Daughter take for a couple of weeks.

When she gets back I'll try the suggestions. I am getting a bit concerned about continually taking it out and putting it back, the cables and pins are fairly flimsy. I have already had to replace the power button cable and the touch pad cable. They are ok now but the ribbon from the back of the HDD is the one that worries me.

Still, I'll be brave and keep trying when I get it back.

Cheers!

I fully agree! As I have said elsewhere - it is too easy to stray from the original problem!